Thanx you Arafael for the idea ! Here is what I wanted to post on Tina's blog but the moderator have deleted it , apparently it violated the policy of tvguide ...
'God plans ahead' and the elects , makes me think of Lapsarianisme , Predestination , Double Predestination , Irresistible Grace . Calvinist theories .
I searched , searched , printed , reading in the car on my way to work , the evening before going to bed and finally thanx Sammy now I picture better what Protestantism is , the big picture because there is so many 'schools' and 'theories' that sometimes to understand and remember everything it is quite hard ;)
When I was with Daff I read a magazine (oh I remember when in the car I was trying to explain to her what's Predestination was) about Jean Calvin that I finished on my flight to Paris (ah the guy sat next to me asked me if I was a teacher hi hi) and it's been more than a month I'm into religious stuffs . And I'm not sure Sammy will get what he wants and Dean ... The way he threw himself into hunting , saving people , was perhaps a way for him to redeem himself ...
I'm going to rave sometimes , so I am sorry at first for this but there are things I find interesting and stories worth to tell -for me . And I really really really would like to know where and why Éric have picked such and such notions for his show . You know what I would really like ? Cas told Dean & Sammy humans have all wrong about the AntiChrist , so what I really would like is that Cas or the storyline tell us that what the Christian Church told it was an heresy or didn't agree with or pointed the finger at was in fact true *grin*
So , I read an article about a Calvinist doctrine (I do not agree with everything Jean said and how behaved but I picture the man better than before) called 'lapsarianisme' , it's the doctrine about the order of God's decrees , particularly about the fall of man (Genesis , you know when God have forbidden Adam and Eve to eat of the tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil in the Garden of Eden -its two guardians were cherubs- and no words of an apple tree) and the reprobation (unconditional election , an another Calvinist doctrine , I'll explain it in the end of my post) . And okay I use the french but eh Jean Calvin was one of my french fellow man , right ? *grin*
Lapsarianisme : The name of this doctrine comes from the latine 'lapsus'meaning 'fall' .
Supralapsarianisme is the idea that the decrees of God of the election and of the reprobation have logically preceded the decree of the fall . In contrary the infralapsarianisme is the idea of the decrees of God of the election and reprobation have logically succeeded to the decree of the fall . No matter it is 'supra' (before) or 'infra' 'after') those decrees have been conceived by God before the creation of the world .
The first to have suggested the idea of supralapsarianisme is Théodore de Bèze (an another French Prostestant who succeeded to Jean) and Jérôme Zanchius (an Italian Protestant) . Nowadays only a few modern Calvinists believe in the supralapsarianisme .
The first time the idea of infralapsarianisme been expressed was in 1618 in the synod of Dordrecht , it is the article 7 'Before the foundation of the world, by sheer grace, according to the free good pleasure of his will, [God] chose in Christ to salvation a definite number of particular people out of the entire human race which had fallen by its own fault from its original innocence into sin and ruin'
In the assembly of Westminster , the 'supralapsaires' were in minority .
Supralapsarianisme term means that God have planned the fall , and the second one is that God have planned it and from this moment , have allowed it to happen or have simply reacted to it . By consequence , only a few Calvinists themselves are not unanimous about this question . None the less , little by little the meaning of it have changed . When everyone told God have planned the fall before the creation , some debates happened about the logical relation existing within the plan of God , between the decision of saving the individuals and the decision to allow the fall . The people who agreed with the supralapsarianisme believe that the logical order of the divine decrees , the election and individual reprobation have logically happened before the fall . The ones who believes in the infralapsarianisme think that they have logically happened subsequently to the fall .
The two positions follow the theory of double predestination , because God have fixed the eternal Fate of the elects and of the damned . However the 'double predestination' is generally nowadays a pejorative and ambigous term used for describe the ones who believes God work activily to keep the same way he works the elects in Heaven and the damned out of Heaven . Jean of coursed didn't participated to the debate because he was died in 1618 (he died in 1564)
Supralapsarianisme is the idea that the fall have happened , amongst others things , to help God to achieve his objective about the election and reprobation of the people . The infralapsarianisme is the idea that the fall have been planned , it was not a reference to the ones God have chosen to save . By consequence , the partisans of the first doctrine believe God haven chosen a way to realize the decision , beforehand taken to send some individuals in Hell and others in Heaven . The fall have given the necessary conditions to the condemnation of the wicked , and the need to redemption in the case of the elects . In contrary , the believers of the second doctrine think God have planned logically the moment where human would fall before the decision to save or damn this man or this one . Plus , they explain that for be saved , you have to face something for obtain the need to be saved . Logically then , the fall would happen before the decree of election .
One of the interest of the debate , is that the 'infra' position could explain a possible theodicy regarding the logical consequence of the predestination -God is the author of the sin .
'Supra' believers are usually said to be hyper-Calvinists . All the hyper-Calvinists are supra-believers , but all the supra-believers are not hyper-Calvinists .
A lot of Calvinists don't believe in the lapsararianisme , people like Herman Bavinck said the decrees odf God are eternal , some others think it is totally useless , because it is a supposition and totally hypothetical .
Well , for you understand better , what's a theodicy (in french 'une théodicée') ? It is to try to resolve the apparent contradiction between the the existence of the evil and the goodness of God .
For the philosophers it is to try to prove that despite of the evil or because of it , history have a meaning , a direction and its development will end well . Kant , Hegel , Leibniz or Jean-Jacques Rousseau believe in that . François-Marie (Arouet aka Voltaire) did not .
Several explanations have been tried for explain this , the omnipotence of God , omniscient and benevolent with the harsh observation of the existence of the evil on earth . The first one being made by Saint Augustine (evil is not a principle in itself but an absence of grace and good work) . Usual answers are that God wants the good for the human being . It is the rebellion of Satan , created by God that is the origin of all the evil in the human .Or an another one is that God have created Lucifer , the 'bearer of light' , willingly Lucifer has became the devil , God have created him with love , he have given him the freedom to act and everything he needed to be aware of his acts . So God is not the cause of evil but Lucifer , in having created the evil , he have created a division in the Creation by separating himself from God , origin of love . For others people , evil we see is not bad when in reality it is a good thing . For others , evil have been sent by God for punish the wicked and test the good people . For others again it is the presence of a good thing in the end , a reward (Hegel) . For others creation couldn't been flawless (Leibniz -ah ah those two makes me think of Arthur Schopenhauer . Arthur have given me the hatred of Hegel , first Arthur did not believe in history , secondly he thought Hegel only talked nonsense ... On purpose , for tell us we were idiots and that he was clever . And for Leibniz , this one told that we lived in the best world possible , Arthur told that amongst all the best possible worlds we lived in the worst) . Anyway , others people in free will (Saint Augustine , Saint Thomas Aquinas) for whom human have the capacity to choose his actions and understand the consequences of them .
When you think of it , we , here , have already debated about theodicy of life ! Éric debates about theodicy of life in the show , too .
What's Irresistible Grace (in french 'grâce irrestible') ? It is the theory that the redemptive grace of God act efficiently for those He have chosen to save , meaning the elect . At the moment chose by God , the grace triumphed over their resistance to obey the call of the Gospel , and they are so took to the saving grace . This doctrine does not mean one can't oppose to any influence of the Holy Spirit of God , only that the Holy Spirit is capable to overcome any resistance and is capable to make its influence irresistible and efficient . And then God decide sovereignly to save someone , this person will be saved with certitude .
What's reprobation ? 'Reprobation, in Christian theology, is a corollary to the Calvinistic doctrine of unconditional election which derives that some of mankind (the elect) are predestined by God for salvation. Therefore, the remainder are left to their fallen nature and eventually to eternal damnation. This same state of unbelief is also known as reprobation. In Calvinist terminology, the non-elect are often referred to as the reprobate. Similarly, when a sinner is so hardened as to feel no remorse or misgiving of conscience, it is considered as a sign of reprobation' (...) 'The English word, reprobate, is from the Latin root probare (English: prove, test), and thus derived from the Latin, reprobatus (reproved, condemned), the opposite of approbatus (commended, approved).
What's Predestination ? What's Double Predestination (the same in french) ? It is the theological concept that God , have chosen from all eternity , and secretly , the ones who would be pardoned and who would receive the eternal life . Double Predestination is that God would have chosen from all eternity who would be damned , at the same time .
In the Christianism , this concept was based on The Ancient Testament and it can be found in the 5 th century already , with Saint Augustin . The protestants spoke about it in the 16 th century . No one can know who will go in Heaven . It is the secret of God . Predestination is a call towards the eternal life , it is everything except a known result . People who say them know who will receive eternal life is a liar , slave to the terrestrial pleasure .
Presdestination for Jean Calvin and the others protestants was a reaction to the catholic clergy who lived in the luxury , mercenaries slaughter the weak people and after they sell their entrance to Purgatory or Heaven . This way they finance Church . It is called 'commerce des indulgences' . I'm going to explain it later .
For Jean , no one known if (s)he is elect and can't know it . To do good on earth have more value like this . It is God who calls by His words , His speech through the Bible , the only possible way towards salvation . The 'biblical simplicity' is easier to assume for pastors than the pretension of the catholic priests to judge the life of the people they confessed .It was a time of the wars of religion was happened in all Europe and God was used for explain the slaughters .
Catholic church never believed in it .
Council of Valence (in France and not Spain) in 853 :
'God created man clean , sinless ; with free will and placed him in Heaven . He wanted that he stayed in the saintliness of justice . But man sinned and deprived after having used his freedom at the wrong moment , and the mankind became a mass of perdition . God , in his goodness and his justice , of this mass of perdition , elected freely in his prescience the ones that He have predestined to eternal life . The others that by the decree of his justice He have left in the mass of perdition , He have prevailed they would perish but He have not predestined them to perish . In his justice , He have predestined them to an eternal grief . There is why we do not speak of only one predestination that relates to the gift of grace , or the retribution of his justice'
There are two texts I really liked (again translation from my part ... And sometimes oh-mon-Dieu to translate ! So I apologize ... )
Council of Valence (France again) in 855 :
'We strongly believe in the predestination of the elects to the life , and to the predestination of the impious people to the death . In the election of those who must be saved , the mercy of God preceed the merit of good actions . In the condemnation of those who will perish , the guilt of the bad actions preceed the just judgment of God . By the predestination , God have only determinated what He'd do by his free mercy or according to his just judgment . In the wicked , God have only predected their mischief as such proceeding of themselves alone . He have not predestined their mischief , because it does not come from Him . But the grief that follows the fault , as such God who knows everything by advance , He only predected it and expected it . But that some have been predestined to evil by the divine will in the way it would not be in their power to do not be evil , we absolutely do not believe it and the ones who believes this we reject them and we curse them'
From the same council :
'We strongly believe that God predected and foreseen from all eternity and the good actions that the good people were going to do in the future and that the evil actions the wicked people were going to accomplish . Because , we have the word of the Scriptures 'eternal God , ye Who knows the hidden things and ye Who knows all the things before they happen' . He have predected that the good ones were going to be good and by this same grace were going to be rewarded by eternal rewarnings . He also predected that the wicked were going to be evil by their own mischief and by the same grace . would have to be punished by eternal punishment . But the prescience of God have not made any evil necessary such a way that the wicked had to be wicked . God who know everything by advance knew by adavancethat the wicked would do by his own free will . We believe that no one have been punished without any motive , but because of his own iniquity . We do not believe , too , that the wicked perish because they could not be good , but because they did not wanted to be good . They have stayed a mass of perdition by their own vice , by the original sin and their present sins'
What's Unconditional Election ? 'In Protestant theology, election is considered to be one aspect of predestination in which God selects certain individuals to be saved. Those elected receive mercy, while those not elected, the reprobates, receive justice (...) ' God’s choice in election is and can only be based solely on God's own independent and sovereign will and [not] upon the foreseen actions of man' . About Jean wrote 'We say, then, that Scripture clearly proves this much, that God by his eternal and immutable counsel determined once for all those whom it was his desire one day to admit to salvation, and those whom, on the other hand, it was his desire to doom to destruction. We maintain that this counsel, as regards the elect, is founded on his free mercy, without any respect to human worth, while those whom he dooms to destruction are excluded from access to life by a just and blameless, but at the same time incomprehensible judgment. In regard to the elect, we regard calling as the evidence of election, and justification as another symbol of its manifestation, until it is fully accomplished by the attainment of glory. But as the Lord seals his elect by calling and justification, so by excluding the reprobate either from the knowledge of his name or the sanctification of his Spirit, he by these marks in a manner discloses the judgment which awaits them.'
In the Westminster Confession it is written 'Those of mankind that are predestinated unto life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to his eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of his will, hath chosen in Christ, unto everlasting glory, out of his free grace and love alone, without any foresight of faith or good works, or perseverance in either of them, or any other thing in the creature, as conditions, or causes moving him thereunto … The rest of mankind God was pleased … to ordain them to dishonor and wrath for their sin'
There is a time that interest me a lot , the 16 th century (and my favorite french king was born in the middle of this century , Henri III and he was the victim of all this madness) and during this century happened what is called 'les guerres de religion in all Europe -'wars of religion' . Appeared what is called the Protestantism , the slaughters of the Catholics towards the Protestants , the slaughters of the Protestants towards the Catholics , the theological debates etc ... All began with the interrogations for his soul by the german priest Martin Luther ...
People always feared for their souls and in the 16 th century the debates about salvation and the need to give limits to the Roman Catholic Church beliefs were very present . Again nowadays what happened in this century is used now . So , redemption ... I already talked about this , so it seems redemption and salvation are the same thing . Synonyms . Redemption ... It is the Jesus who have saved us by his death and his resurrection) . The salvation of the soul . What want Sammy ? I wonder if Sammy is fearing for his soul when he told about redemption ... And every time I think of what was called 'le commerce des indulgence' (the trade of indulgence) . . In short :
It comes from the Roman Catholic Church , it is the possibility to buy indulgences (of latine indulgere 'grant') meaning the remission , total or partial before God of the temporal sentence incurred inconsequence of a forgiven sin . The beginning of this practice comes started in the III th century and received pontifical decrees in the XII th century .The indulgence one received in compensation of an act of piety (pilgrimage , prayer , mortification) during the centuries will ended up by being a lucrative business .
The affair of the trade of indulgence was the why of the protestant Reform , in this time because of the printing the lecture of the Bible was more simple and anyone could read it , in every languages , it was a way for the possibility of critics about catholic beliefs , the practices of its priests .
The priest Martin Luther against the indulgences ninety-fice theses that he put on the doors of the castles of Wittemberg . Aloud he told that we are saved not because of the money we give or because of the mass said on our behalf but by the only grace of God , and that no one knew the choices . Martin expressed his faith in the predestination , secret divine will that he oppose against the pretentiousness of the priests who thinks they could exchange the access of the Heaven by telling who could go in .
The trade spread out in a time where violence , fear of the death and Hell , disease were present and in every minds . At the same time Renaissance started . The bands of mercenaries (Hundred Years' War in France for example -1337/1453 -we ended up led by three kings at the same and all this because of this English people;)) slaughter the weaker ones before to buy for themselves their access to the Purgatory or Heaven . It is because of what one does by the works of the Church , that one finance . Protestants call it 'le commerce des indulgences' and they see in it the vicious cycle violence-forgiveness .
Millions of masses are said every year by priests , against remuneration , for private people . Only the most rich people could pay for a hope of an access for Heaven , no matter what happens . Some priests live in luxury , they sell to others their rights to tell the mass and they don't even go to their parishes .
The most famous indulgence was given to anyone who help to the construction of the new basilica Saint-Pierre of Rome . The pope Leon X (1513-1521) have not enough money so he have had the idea to sell indulgences to Alexandre de Brandenburg , he was 24 and had two or three dioceses and he wanted to become archbishop of Mayence . For buy 'in bulk' these indulgences , Alexandre borrowed in 1515 24.000 ducats to Jacob Fugger , banker of Ausbourg and of the emperor Charles Quint . For ge"t free of this debts , Alexandre sell back some indulgences to the followers , with the agreement of the Pope , who had a commission of 50 % on them .
The Dominicans Johann Tetzel was on charged of the preaching , it is said that he have told 'aussitôt que l'argent tnite dans la caisse , l'âme s'envole du Purgatoire' (so soon as the penny jingles into the money-box, the soul flies out of) Purgatory . He wanted to preach in Wittemberg but the duke Frédéric refused because himself he proposed to his subjects , 17443 relics to venerate .
At the same time in Switzerland , the Pope started the trade with a Franciscan priest Bernadin Samson . With this a lot of money went out of Switzerland , soon the people were angry at this . It is the reason of the good welcoming towards the anger of Martin Luther , again more because that the Swiss Ulrich Zwingli protested against them . In 1524 , only seven years after the 95 theses of Luther , Zurich became the first Reformist city .
Like Zwingli , Martin protested against the indulgences in his theses like against the church in Rome , in Germany , in Halle it was supposed that there were 42000 bodies of relics and 42 entire bodies of saints that could give forty millions years of indulgences . The synodal book of Troyes (1530) promise 11300 days of indulgence to anyone who would celebrate by the rules the Fête-Dieu . A real accounting of sins and merits took place . Regular people thought they could shorten their stay in the Purgatory .
'Pourquoi le Pape n'édifie-t-il pas la basilique de Saint-Pierre de ses propres deniers, plutôt qu'avec l'argent des pauvres fidèles, puisque ses richesses sont aujourd'hui plus grandes que celles de l'homme le plus opulent ? (th86) 'Why does not the pope, whose wealth is today greater than the riches of the richest, build just this one church of St. Peter with his own money, rather than with the money of poor believers?'
For the Purgatory :
'Ils prêchent des inventions humaines, ceux qui prétendent qu'aussitôt que l'argent résonne dans leur caisse, l'âme s'envole du Purgatoire' (th27) 'They preach man who say that so soon as the penny jingles into the money-box, the soul flies out of Purgatory'
Things like :
'Il est aussi rare de trouver un homme qui achète une vraie indulgence qu'un homme vraiment pénitent' (th31) 'Rare as is the man that is truly penitent, so rare is also the man who truly buys indulgences, i.e., such men are most rare'
'Il faut enseigner aux chrétiens que celui qui donne aux pauvres ou prête aux nécessiteux fait mieux que s'il achetait des indulgences' (th43) 'Christians are to be taught that he who gives to the poor or lends to the needy does a better work than buying pardon'
(the consequences for Luther was that he have been excommunicated) .
The argument of the indulgences was one of the main argument and reason of the schism between Protestants and Catholics in the 16 th century
Finis ! People who read me you have been brave ! Very brave !
Thanx again to Arafael for this idea ! And a special hi to eggblue !
- Current Location:France
- Current Mood: weird
- Current Music:Porcupine Tree 'Tarquin Seaweed Farmer'